Many years ago, when I was still immersed in conservative theology, I began to struggle with the notion that my little sect of belief was THE one that knew THE truth about a god even we claimed was unknowable. One day, as I was walking across City Hall Park in my hometown, an Hassidic man passed me dressed in all his garb. I had the thought, "I am going to tell HIM that I know the real truth?" Nonsense. (Yawn)
These days I'm still drawn to the vastness of the universe (more darkness than light). So many things call me to worship.
Lyn, I LOVE this short post. I smaile at the image of you thinking you'd convert someone who clearly was uncovertible. I too was once immersed in conservative theology. I went to seminary when I was 41 and three years later stopped believing in God, at least THAT god. My son said many years later, "So you spent our college tuition to go to seminary just so you could leave the church?" Yes, said I. That's how tight its grip was. I love that you're drawn to the vastness of the universe (me too). I just grabbed Brian Swimme's and Mary Evelyn Tucker's The Journey of the Universe off the shelf to read again this week. "So many things call me to worship." Yes. Thank you for your post. (You're a good writer. I subscribed to your Substack. I hope to hear more!)
Hi Lori, Thanks for the comment. I don't know the book Journey of the Universe but will definitely check it out. "...how tight its grip was..." I feel that. That's exactly how it was for me. I'm new to the whole Substack thing but hope to talk with you more on here!
I felt a kindred spirit as I read your note, hope I am not over assuming … 🤔 Today, the awesome of the universe to me could not entertain the idea that one human sect could be the only path. My personal faith intro’s me to a vastness that goes far beyond my teachings in their “exclusivity”. What I personally experienced is real and valid as ever… just not the only way, as it had been explained to me. America was founded by men who had seen this in Europe, and the wars it caused, all in the name of God!
This is the truth that I feel the Holy Spirit has led me to embrace after some 50 years of believing. It won’t play well in some circles. I am at peace however, and hope all find peace in their hearts too!
I love the sentence, "...a vastness that goes far beyond my teachings in their exclusivity." Real...and valid...and not the only way. I am learning, too, what circles to share my story in and how. It's a beautiful thing--finding peace. Thanks so much, Ed.
I sense...tiredness. Exhaustion from the mental banter. The one in the corner wants more than intellectual discourse, even as the mind swings to and fro. There is a search for stability, something that holds it all together, something worth holding it together for. In the darkness, light spins hope from sources long gone (I think of Jeremiah Burroughs, George Macdonald, George Herbert). In the spinning, the lonely one knows answers won't fill every crack of darkness, but it is enough to have some light, and the rest...received by faith.
I'm in a good place to enjoy Drinking from another fountain. Meditated on gratitude for half an hour and no need to rise from my bed! So I'm alone.
I like RS Thomas ' plea for ruffians and saints. It makes me feel included. It's raining on the leaves outside - That will be my relationship with my God today!
I think of the James Webb telescope. All that we can see now that we never could. This poem says to me. Think for yourself. Stop listening to the establishments of man. Look for new truths.
I’m just outside the room, or I’m physically in the room, too, but my attention is out the window: “The centuries / yawn” (which I read as boredom as well as a swallowing, cavernous invitation, like the mouth of a cave) and “Outside the wind / howls”. Staring at the old fire of stars. I’m not really there completely. Something more real is happening on the periphery while this prattle rolls on. I want to go outside.
Could it be that the figure in the corner represents science? We know, from science, that the light we see from stars (by the time its light reaches our “eye lenses”) is from the past. From a scientists perspective, the “knowledge” that humans find through science takes away *some* of the mysteries of our life on earth (“the stars, that once were the illuminated city of the imagination”), and decrease the need for reducing this mystery to endless arguments (which continue to be waged as wars - if only we could simply “yawn”). The scientific method is not about hierarchies or judgements of “good vs. bad” (“He drinks at another fountain that builds itself equally from the [star] dust of ruffians and saints”). This all said, scientists equally yearn for Truth, for Knowing. No matter how ‘dark’, *the mystery of consciousness continues to beckon* (as represented by this figure). “Consciousness” (whatever it is!) has created our curiosity, lit our imaginations, and caught us in its web - one that is neither of our making nor one that we are separate from to observe directly.
“The universe
is a large place with more of
darkness than light, *But* slowly
a web is spun there as minds like
his swing themselves to and fro.”
Alternatively, this interpretation is totally off base :)
i love this interpretation. In a room full of friends with many "supernatural" beliefs, I am often bemusedly but happily in the corner, floating a bit in an air suffused with science.
My interpretation chimes with yours. I don't think we're far off base, though even poems I write myself have many different interpretations and ambiguities.
Thanks as always for your offerings, Padraig. Interesting comments. My main thought, however, is that this narrator is wearied by the dry over- intellectualization which sucks beauty and possibility - Eros - from life. Wearied by the dregs of patriarchal patterns. No feminine at all in this poem, though perhaps hinted at / hoped for in the webs at the end.
As someone who has swung between the assurance of things unseen and kenotic dark nights of the soul, this poem arrives like a balm. I have drunk from both fountains, ingesting meaning and boredom, after a while, from both domains. I read the yawn as a double entendre…yawn as in boredom and yawn as in spaciousness for both domains. There is a corner for all should we be willing to listen.
Heading to Wales in two weeks. Will pick up a collection of Thomas’ poems to read as we trek Offa’s Duke path. Thanks for the introduction!
I like Ian's suggestion below! But if you're looking for a smaller book, I can recommend any of his individual volumes "Laboratories of the Spirit" "The Way of It" or "H'm" -- all from the 1970s. And each very short, but so brimming with brilliance that you'll read them many times. (he wrote many other collections, but these are my favourites).
You have reminded me of something i used to do which was read one poet voraciously and learn some of their poems by heart. More recently i have taken a scattershot approach of reading randomly, a short book or even one poem.
I think i will restart the original approach - but where to start? Maybe RS Thomas? Mary Oliver, Elliot (again).
I need to look for the figure in the corner. The hidden knowledge
I too was struck by the idea of reading all of the work of a single poet. I haven't done anything close to that since college. Now I tend to return to my favorites again and again. There is so much more to discover in the vastness of poetry.
For me the word ‘pointlessness’ is key. In that one word he crushes opinion and opens to the vastness of unfathomable fires that have long burned out, with more darkness than light from which to ebb and flow
I feel a bit of Luther in these words... saints and sinners (ruffians)... being one and the same. The one in the corner is the most important person in the poem. He is not the one engaging in never-ending debates about God and self... he is the one that, I think, is tied to the bigger picture of this vast and amazing world. And it is this world that includes all of us fellow silent beings. This poem makes me feel seen and appreciated. Thank you so much for sharing it!
Thank you for this into to RS Thomas- and rekindling my love of Wales- the language, people and much desolate landscape- The part :
“The universe
is a large place with more of
darkness than light”
…speaks to me- and the Christmas Eve Anglican service I went to, many years ago. It echoes the darkness of that night- as we walked into the service -illuminated by the stars and what seemed to be a moonless sky. As I stood in the church, I embraced the Welsh language, which was interwoven with English throughout- so familiar is the Anglican service, I could follow along.
What moves me, connects me, is that passage to that memory, and the notion that the darker the moment, the more important whatever light remains.
This August morning I am filled with gratitude and awe for you, your courage to explore life’s poetry and your connection to a wisdom rooted in such unending love.
Many years ago, when I was still immersed in conservative theology, I began to struggle with the notion that my little sect of belief was THE one that knew THE truth about a god even we claimed was unknowable. One day, as I was walking across City Hall Park in my hometown, an Hassidic man passed me dressed in all his garb. I had the thought, "I am going to tell HIM that I know the real truth?" Nonsense. (Yawn)
These days I'm still drawn to the vastness of the universe (more darkness than light). So many things call me to worship.
That is where my mind goes when I read this poem.
Lyn, I LOVE this short post. I smaile at the image of you thinking you'd convert someone who clearly was uncovertible. I too was once immersed in conservative theology. I went to seminary when I was 41 and three years later stopped believing in God, at least THAT god. My son said many years later, "So you spent our college tuition to go to seminary just so you could leave the church?" Yes, said I. That's how tight its grip was. I love that you're drawn to the vastness of the universe (me too). I just grabbed Brian Swimme's and Mary Evelyn Tucker's The Journey of the Universe off the shelf to read again this week. "So many things call me to worship." Yes. Thank you for your post. (You're a good writer. I subscribed to your Substack. I hope to hear more!)
Hi Lori, Thanks for the comment. I don't know the book Journey of the Universe but will definitely check it out. "...how tight its grip was..." I feel that. That's exactly how it was for me. I'm new to the whole Substack thing but hope to talk with you more on here!
I felt a kindred spirit as I read your note, hope I am not over assuming … 🤔 Today, the awesome of the universe to me could not entertain the idea that one human sect could be the only path. My personal faith intro’s me to a vastness that goes far beyond my teachings in their “exclusivity”. What I personally experienced is real and valid as ever… just not the only way, as it had been explained to me. America was founded by men who had seen this in Europe, and the wars it caused, all in the name of God!
This is the truth that I feel the Holy Spirit has led me to embrace after some 50 years of believing. It won’t play well in some circles. I am at peace however, and hope all find peace in their hearts too!
I love the sentence, "...a vastness that goes far beyond my teachings in their exclusivity." Real...and valid...and not the only way. I am learning, too, what circles to share my story in and how. It's a beautiful thing--finding peace. Thanks so much, Ed.
What a nice wake up word, thank you 🥰
I sense...tiredness. Exhaustion from the mental banter. The one in the corner wants more than intellectual discourse, even as the mind swings to and fro. There is a search for stability, something that holds it all together, something worth holding it together for. In the darkness, light spins hope from sources long gone (I think of Jeremiah Burroughs, George Macdonald, George Herbert). In the spinning, the lonely one knows answers won't fill every crack of darkness, but it is enough to have some light, and the rest...received by faith.
How beautiful and prescient for us today. Perhaps "the web" connects the lonely one not only to light, but to creative energy.
I'm in a good place to enjoy Drinking from another fountain. Meditated on gratitude for half an hour and no need to rise from my bed! So I'm alone.
I like RS Thomas ' plea for ruffians and saints. It makes me feel included. It's raining on the leaves outside - That will be my relationship with my God today!
Good August Morn, All,
I feel from the words that it can be lonely to be thinking outside cultural norms and conventions.
alone in a corner,
alone in a dark universe.
However, those who dare to think and dream
can find and/or build a web of connectedness
with others who are also alone in their corners, considering the yin and yang,
darkness and light.
I think of the James Webb telescope. All that we can see now that we never could. This poem says to me. Think for yourself. Stop listening to the establishments of man. Look for new truths.
I’m just outside the room, or I’m physically in the room, too, but my attention is out the window: “The centuries / yawn” (which I read as boredom as well as a swallowing, cavernous invitation, like the mouth of a cave) and “Outside the wind / howls”. Staring at the old fire of stars. I’m not really there completely. Something more real is happening on the periphery while this prattle rolls on. I want to go outside.
“Yawn.” ‘Like the mouth of a cave’ Thank you for this - a contrast between containment and the vastness of space!
Yes, yes and your comment prompts another question, where and what is “outside?”
Stars and webs—entire universes with their own corner-sitting strangers mumbling nothings to themselves!
Could it be that the figure in the corner represents science? We know, from science, that the light we see from stars (by the time its light reaches our “eye lenses”) is from the past. From a scientists perspective, the “knowledge” that humans find through science takes away *some* of the mysteries of our life on earth (“the stars, that once were the illuminated city of the imagination”), and decrease the need for reducing this mystery to endless arguments (which continue to be waged as wars - if only we could simply “yawn”). The scientific method is not about hierarchies or judgements of “good vs. bad” (“He drinks at another fountain that builds itself equally from the [star] dust of ruffians and saints”). This all said, scientists equally yearn for Truth, for Knowing. No matter how ‘dark’, *the mystery of consciousness continues to beckon* (as represented by this figure). “Consciousness” (whatever it is!) has created our curiosity, lit our imaginations, and caught us in its web - one that is neither of our making nor one that we are separate from to observe directly.
“The universe
is a large place with more of
darkness than light, *But* slowly
a web is spun there as minds like
his swing themselves to and fro.”
Alternatively, this interpretation is totally off base :)
I like what you're bringing here, Kerry!
i love this interpretation. In a room full of friends with many "supernatural" beliefs, I am often bemusedly but happily in the corner, floating a bit in an air suffused with science.
My interpretation chimes with yours. I don't think we're far off base, though even poems I write myself have many different interpretations and ambiguities.
Thanks as always for your offerings, Padraig. Interesting comments. My main thought, however, is that this narrator is wearied by the dry over- intellectualization which sucks beauty and possibility - Eros - from life. Wearied by the dregs of patriarchal patterns. No feminine at all in this poem, though perhaps hinted at / hoped for in the webs at the end.
As someone who has swung between the assurance of things unseen and kenotic dark nights of the soul, this poem arrives like a balm. I have drunk from both fountains, ingesting meaning and boredom, after a while, from both domains. I read the yawn as a double entendre…yawn as in boredom and yawn as in spaciousness for both domains. There is a corner for all should we be willing to listen.
Heading to Wales in two weeks. Will pick up a collection of Thomas’ poems to read as we trek Offa’s Duke path. Thanks for the introduction!
I like Ian's suggestion below! But if you're looking for a smaller book, I can recommend any of his individual volumes "Laboratories of the Spirit" "The Way of It" or "H'm" -- all from the 1970s. And each very short, but so brimming with brilliance that you'll read them many times. (he wrote many other collections, but these are my favourites).
Nothing like R S Thomas’ collective works although carrying it on Offas dyke path is a challenge - I know it as I did exactly that 30 years ago
:). Thanks for the heads up!
Now I have to look up Offa's Duke Path.
But slowly a web is spun there…. I can relate to the SLOWLY. And also to the to and fro….. darkness….light.
Feeling quite happy all of a sudden in my little corner😊
You have reminded me of something i used to do which was read one poet voraciously and learn some of their poems by heart. More recently i have taken a scattershot approach of reading randomly, a short book or even one poem.
I think i will restart the original approach - but where to start? Maybe RS Thomas? Mary Oliver, Elliot (again).
I need to look for the figure in the corner. The hidden knowledge
I too was struck by the idea of reading all of the work of a single poet. I haven't done anything close to that since college. Now I tend to return to my favorites again and again. There is so much more to discover in the vastness of poetry.
For me the word ‘pointlessness’ is key. In that one word he crushes opinion and opens to the vastness of unfathomable fires that have long burned out, with more darkness than light from which to ebb and flow
I feel a bit of Luther in these words... saints and sinners (ruffians)... being one and the same. The one in the corner is the most important person in the poem. He is not the one engaging in never-ending debates about God and self... he is the one that, I think, is tied to the bigger picture of this vast and amazing world. And it is this world that includes all of us fellow silent beings. This poem makes me feel seen and appreciated. Thank you so much for sharing it!
I went down the same path and ended up with an oxymoron- a ruffian saint, like a prophet.! A tough truth teller.
Thank you for this into to RS Thomas- and rekindling my love of Wales- the language, people and much desolate landscape- The part :
“The universe
is a large place with more of
darkness than light”
…speaks to me- and the Christmas Eve Anglican service I went to, many years ago. It echoes the darkness of that night- as we walked into the service -illuminated by the stars and what seemed to be a moonless sky. As I stood in the church, I embraced the Welsh language, which was interwoven with English throughout- so familiar is the Anglican service, I could follow along.
What moves me, connects me, is that passage to that memory, and the notion that the darker the moment, the more important whatever light remains.
Thank you for this thought and image to ponder.
"the darker the moment, the more important whatever light remains"
I have lived - and survived - this!
Such a beautiful - and haunting - expression of reality. 🕯
Beautiful image. I would like to go to Wales
I am transported to the Hubble and Webb telescope images of our vast universes, and the light that doesn't seem to burn out, tho it should.
I wonder how how, or if, RS Thomas would have been affected by these images. Yet his words, like that light, include this possibility.
This August morning I am filled with gratitude and awe for you, your courage to explore life’s poetry and your connection to a wisdom rooted in such unending love.